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 Gravemind - Once Malevolent, Now Stirring? 
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Unread post Re: Gravemind - Once Malevolent, Now Stirring?
failedparachute wrote:
Okay, I've been giving it thought and I'm sure that something similar has been posted on the topic (if not here than on the Halo Story Page). DISCLAIMER: I have very little evidence to support this theory, it was mostly thought up because of several quotes from Joe Staten:

Quote:
HSP: The Flood are more than just a biological curiosity to the Forerunner.
JS: Curiosity? No. The Flood was the Forerunner's undoing - an overwhelming antagonist they could not defeat without putting a gun between their collective teeth, and pulling the trigger.


Quote:
HSP: The Covenant released the Flood.
JS: No rational beings would ever knowingly release the Flood. Or, if they did, one would hope they had a damn good reason.


I believe that the Flood is a creation by the Forerunners. What initially led me to that conclusion was Joe's choice of words, specifically "The Flood was the Forerunner's undoing..." "Undoing?" sounds like they brought the Flood upon themselves, which leads into my theory.

The Forerunners being such an advanced race had grown large and powerful. Perhaps, they were powerful enough to think themselves gods, after all they first gave machines life, as evidence by the eons old Sentinels and Monitors. Perhaps, the even tried to modify their genes, and made themselves perfect. Perfect, except that the were still mortal, still chained to their existence until it ended. Hence, their "damn good reason." They decided to either create or modify a symbotic organism, so that their relationship with it could pronlong their life. But you know what they say about the best laid plans.

Perhaps, at first the Forerunners willingly submitted themselves to the symbiote, unaware of any danger. But the symbiote also took gained from the relationship, the knowledge of the original being, and it found it wanted more. Perhaps, the symbiote realized that it could control the host, in minute ways first, then it began to escalate until it controlled the host entirely. That's about where it mutated, or evolved. It began to consume the Forerunners, and their knowledge, and anything and everything in its path, hence the the name Flood.

Like Icarus, the Forerunners fell and they tried desparately to take the symbiote now parasite with them. At the beginning of the level with the same title, Gravemind tells us, "[he is] a monument, to all [our] sins." What "sins"? The sin of trying to be god(s)? The blood on the hands of the decedents of the Forerunners (us)? Hmm, I seem to have drifted off-topic, but I think that about wraps it up. Someone want to get the flak guns ready and fill this full of holes?


Actually I think you may be onto something there, those are some very good points to be certain. I think this theory is definately plausible and makes a lot of sense. Obviously, we are the decendants of the Forerunners, hence Gravemind blaming us for what he is. Also those statements made by Staten (Statements by Staten? :lol: ) make a lot of sense if you use them in that context.

Now is where I make a blunder: Who exactly is Staten? Sorry for being such a n00b but I honestly don't know.


Fri Jul 06, 2007 4:01 pm
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Unread post Re: Gravemind - Once Malevolent, Now Stirring?
Air Sparrow Hawk wrote:
Yeah, who ever says the Prophet WAS alive?

If you think about it this way, a Flood infection form can control all movement through tentacled that are inserted into the victim's spinal cord and muscles, if a flood can control movement, what's to say it can't control speech? What if the Prophet was dead and was just being used as a puppet for the Gravemind? In the same way he could've used 2401 Penitent Tangent as a puppet. By putting on this cherade he could tell Master Chief, Cortana and the Arbiter anything he wanted and they would blindly believe it.

Then... could there be another use for the Halos? Why else would Gravemind want to stop the firing sequence?


I think we would've known if an Infection form was controlling Regret, because it would've made him look more Flood-like, and even if it didn't, it wouldn't be hard to spot an Infection form with its tendrils/probiscuous/tentacles controlling Regret. It would have to be controlling the Central Nervous System via the spinal cord and/or brain stem ( I can't remember which) and considering that the Prophet's anatomy isn't too outrageously different from ours (we're both bipeds. two arms, two legs, etc.) the CNS is probably in a similar location. Nice theory though. As for Gravemind want to stop the sequence, there's one obvious motivating factor, he's a Flood, it kills his food, so survival is up there. We have yet to see what else he has in store for us. I suppose well find out September 25th, unless it's somehow linked to this ARG, which it very well could be...

As for who Joe Staten is he's been more or less in charge of Halo's story since the beginning, and also, he provides voice acting for the Grunts (all of them in Halo CE if I remember right, I think he had help in H2). I can't recall if I he was involved with Marathon, though I want to say he was...(anyone better informed?)


Fri Jul 06, 2007 4:10 pm
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Unread post Re: Gravemind - Once Malevolent, Now Stirring?
failedparachute wrote:
Air Sparrow Hawk wrote:
Yeah, who ever says the Prophet WAS alive?

If you think about it this way, a Flood infection form can control all movement through tentacled that are inserted into the victim's spinal cord and muscles, if a flood can control movement, what's to say it can't control speech? What if the Prophet was dead and was just being used as a puppet for the Gravemind? In the same way he could've used 2401 Penitent Tangent as a puppet. By putting on this cherade he could tell Master Chief, Cortana and the Arbiter anything he wanted and they would blindly believe it.

Then... could there be another use for the Halos? Why else would Gravemind want to stop the firing sequence?


I think we would've known if an Infection form was controlling Regret, because it would've made him look more Flood-like, and even if it didn't, it wouldn't be hard to spot an Infection form with its tendrils/probiscuous/tentacles controlling Regret. It would have to be controlling the Central Nervous System via the spinal cord and/or brain stem ( I can't remember which) and considering that the Prophet's anatomy isn't too outrageously different from ours (we're both bipeds. two arms, two legs, etc.) the CNS is probably in a similar location. Nice theory though. As for Gravemind want to stop the sequence, there's one obvious motivating factor, he's a Flood, it kills his food, so survival is up there. We have yet to see what else he has in store for us. I suppose well find out September 25th, unless it's somehow linked to this ARG, which it very well could be...

As for who Joe Staten is he's been more or less in charge of Halo's story since the beginning, and also, he provides voice acting for the Grunts (all of them in Halo CE if I remember right, I think he had help in H2). I can't recall if I he was involved with Marathon, though I want to say he was...(anyone better informed?)


Wasn't Regret part of one of Gravemind's tentacles, as in his body was physically assimilated into Gravemind's (check out the cutscene here: http://halocinema.bungie.org/halo2/22_inside_job.wmv_)? I think at that point the question of whether or not an infection form is controlling his cns is moot (poor guy) :P

as far as the forerunner-looking-for-immortality-and-creating-the-flood-by-mistake idea, my money's on you being spot-on. We'll see in September!


Fri Jul 06, 2007 5:04 pm
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Unread post Re: Gravemind - Once Malevolent, Now Stirring?
smallfry wrote:
failedparachute wrote:
Air Sparrow Hawk wrote:
Yeah, who ever says the Prophet WAS alive?

If you think about it this way, a Flood infection form can control all movement through tentacled that are inserted into the victim's spinal cord and muscles, if a flood can control movement, what's to say it can't control speech? What if the Prophet was dead and was just being used as a puppet for the Gravemind? In the same way he could've used 2401 Penitent Tangent as a puppet. By putting on this cherade he could tell Master Chief, Cortana and the Arbiter anything he wanted and they would blindly believe it.

Then... could there be another use for the Halos? Why else would Gravemind want to stop the firing sequence?


I think we would've known if an Infection form was controlling Regret, because it would've made him look more Flood-like, and even if it didn't, it wouldn't be hard to spot an Infection form with its tendrils/probiscuous/tentacles controlling Regret. It would have to be controlling the Central Nervous System via the spinal cord and/or brain stem ( I can't remember which) and considering that the Prophet's anatomy isn't too outrageously different from ours (we're both bipeds. two arms, two legs, etc.) the CNS is probably in a similar location. Nice theory though. As for Gravemind want to stop the sequence, there's one obvious motivating factor, he's a Flood, it kills his food, so survival is up there. We have yet to see what else he has in store for us. I suppose well find out September 25th, unless it's somehow linked to this ARG, which it very well could be...

As for who Joe Staten is he's been more or less in charge of Halo's story since the beginning, and also, he provides voice acting for the Grunts (all of them in Halo CE if I remember right, I think he had help in H2). I can't recall if I he was involved with Marathon, though I want to say he was...(anyone better informed?)


Wasn't Regret part of one of Gravemind's tentacles, as in his body was physically assimilated into Gravemind's (check out the cutscene here: http://halocinema.bungie.org/halo2/22_inside_job.wmv_)? I think at that point the question of whether or not an infection form is controlling his cns is moot (poor guy) :P

as far as the forerunner-looking-for-immortality-and-creating-the-flood-by-mistake idea, my money's on you being spot-on. We'll see in September!


Yes he was part of the tentacles, if he was part of gravemind then I think it is quite possible that he was an Infection form host.


Fri Jul 06, 2007 5:24 pm
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Unread post Re: Gravemind - Once Malevolent, Now Stirring?
Air Sparrow Hawk wrote:

Yes he was part of the tentacles, if he was part of gravemind then I think it is quite possible that he was an Infection form host.


I don't deny that Regret wasn't infected by the Flood, I just ask one question: how? Like I previously stated, any infection prior to his encounter with Master Chief would've been visible and he was supposed to be dead (or at least plasma fodder) after the encounter so how did he get infected? I keep find the idea that the Flood "raise the dead" circulating when that is not what actually happens, but rather they join with the host while it's still alive. I believe part of the problem is it's a discrepancy that, to my knowledge, Bungie hasn't addressed. I wish I had more time to discuss, but I gotta get back to work.


Fri Jul 06, 2007 5:37 pm
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Unread post Re: Gravemind - Once Malevolent, Now Stirring?
failedparachute wrote:
Air Sparrow Hawk wrote:

Yes he was part of the tentacles, if he was part of gravemind then I think it is quite possible that he was an Infection form host.


I don't deny that Regret wasn't infected by the Flood, I just ask one question: how? Like I previously stated, any infection prior to his encounter with Master Chief would've been visible and he was supposed to be dead (or at least plasma fodder) after the encounter so how did he get infected? I keep find the idea that the Flood "raise the dead" circulating when that is not what actually happens, but rather they join with the host while it's still alive. I believe part of the problem is it's a discrepancy that, to my knowledge, Bungie hasn't addressed. I wish I had more time to discuss, but I gotta get back to work.


Well we already know that a Flood can only/will only (clarrification needed) infect living creatures due to the fact that when a squad of Marines was attacked by the flood, one of them escaped by playing dead.

However, we do not know for certain if this is the case with the Gravemind as he is a sort of 'super flood' it seems, and is far more intelligent than the others. Could he have some sort of medical power? I do not know. What is to say the Chief actually killed Regret? What if the Chief just knocked him unconcious then escaped only to have Regret become concious again and a flood infection form to have taken over him? I know it sounds far-fetched but it does seem like a possibility to me.

Another possibility is that Gravemind doesn't just infect the host, he fuses with it. So it's a possibility that after fusing with regret's body he was able to connect to Regret's brain and control him like that, he was then assimilated and absorbed fully into Gravemind.

Ideas? Contributions? Objections?

Don't go too Phoenix Wright on me though.


Fri Jul 06, 2007 6:14 pm
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Unread post Re: Gravemind - Once Malevolent, Now Stirring?
Air Sparrow Hawk wrote:

Another possibility is that Gravemind doesn't just infect the host, he fuses with it. So it's a possibility that after fusing with regret's body he was able to connect to Regret's brain and control him like that, he was then assimilated and absorbed fully into Gravemind.


Right--from what we've seen, graveminds are constructed from dead bodies, not live infected ones. I guess this shows that bodies assimilated thus are still available for their knowledge. It's sort of like GM pushed 'play' on that part of Regret's brain, and his personality came to life for a bit, oblivious to his 'condition.'

Which still begs the question of how gm kept 2401 pt docile. pt wasn't integrated into gm like Regret was; he was held, entwined. I'm really confused on that point. :?:


Fri Jul 06, 2007 6:36 pm
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Unread post Re: Gravemind - Once Malevolent, Now Stirring?
If the flood/Gravemind do retain the knowledge of all infected he would theoretically have knowledge of any forerunner technology as well. It's possible Gravemind is simply familiar enough with 2401PT's controls that he was able to override or block his access to the transportation grid through controls on PT's casing.

Theory 2: I've only played through Halo 2's campaign 3 times that I can recall, so I may be forgetting, but I actually don't recall anyone teleporting on Delta Halo. Is it possible that this Halo simply wasn't built with a transportation grid? Like I said, I only played through the campaign in its entirety a few times so it's possible we were teleporting all over the place and I just don't remember.

-Disciple


Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:16 pm
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Unread post Re: Gravemind - Once Malevolent, Now Stirring?
he's only a monitor, i don't think its that strong, but then again it is a forerunner construct.

besides, isn't it fairly easy to reanimate people before 4 minutes? otherwise they get brain damage due to lack of oxygen?

and besides Spartans=Super strong, so maybe one of GM's tentacles grabbed Regret after he died?(like a kraken tentacle from Pirates)

btw i like the whole "Forerunner created flood to live forever" idea, it sounds very plausible, and makes sense


Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:18 pm
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Unread post Re: Gravemind - Once Malevolent, Now Stirring?
DiscipleN2k wrote:
If the flood/Gravemind do retain the knowledge of all infected he would theoretically have knowledge of any forerunner technology as well. It's possible Gravemind is simply familiar enough with 2401PT's controls that he was able to override or block his access to the transportation grid through controls on PT's casing.

Theory 2: I've only played through Halo 2's campaign 3 times that I can recall, so I may be forgetting, but I actually don't recall anyone teleporting on Delta Halo. Is it possible that this Halo simply wasn't built with a transportation grid? Like I said, I only played through the campaign in its entirety a few times so it's possible we were teleporting all over the place and I just don't remember.

-Disciple


Your first point is the best I've heard. Good simple one.

There are two teleportations btw--one, Master Chief to High Charity (the throne room, where you fight a few groups of grunts & brutes), and two, the Arbiter to a trail near the Control Room.


Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:22 pm
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